Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:12:09 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 39


------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. RE: Robot cart dimensions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. RE:  Clarification on Traction Systems
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. RE: Latex Tubing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. RE: Small Parts parts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Third Controller
           From: "mansfieldrobotics" <mansfieldrobotics@yahoo.com>
      6. Re: Third Controller
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. RE:  Lap tops
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. RE: Pneumatics
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. RE: Back to Back Regionals
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: RE: Pneumatics
           From: Doug Hogg <pinewood@pacbell.net>
     11. Clarification on RE: Pneumatics message 738
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. Re: Yearbook and Robot Checklist
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 03:57:59 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Robot cart dimensions

>Is there a dimension limit on the robot cart we use to transport 
>our robot from the pit area to the field?

A)  The cart is totally unregulated, so you may make it however you 
want to, and out of anything you wish.  But keep in mind that there 
is limited space at competition, and the pit area and space around 
the arena will be filled with people.  So you might want to build 
the cart small, light and maneuverable enough to move around in a 
crowded pit area through aisles and corners easily.  Please be 
considerate of the people around you.

-FIRST KL




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:13:00 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Clarification on Traction Systems

Original posts:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Q)  There have been pictures posted of teams using metal cleats on 
chain tracks to gain traction.
Rule M11 states that Velcro is illegal because it has the potential 
to damage the carpet.
Various posts have indicated that if a device or system has 
the "POTENTIAL" to damage the carpet it will be disallowed.

I believe that if traction is broken with these metal cleated 
systems they will damage the carpet.  

Am I wrong in my belief?
Are metal cleats OK to use to gain traction?

Our dilemma....
Do we play it safe and stay with rubber on carpet...or do we go with 
a metal cleated track and gain traction over other teams who 
have "played it safe"?

Can you please clarify??


CLARIFICATION ON TRACTION SYSTEMS

I have read the posts #103, 145, 288, & 348 along with M11 
concerning traction and carpet damage.  

Some observations?

#1 Increase in traction to either pull or hold is the main focus of 
many robot design strategies this year.

#2 There have been many drive systems used by teams in the past 
years that if dragged across carpet or if the wheel/track were to 
break traction and spin would damage the carpet. 

An example.
Team "A" and Team "B" have similar metal-cleated tank track 
systems.  
Neither system damages the carpet during normal operation.  In a 
given match team "A" breaks traction and/or is pulled by another 
team thus resulting in damage to the carpet.  
According to the rule M11 and interpreted in the posts #288, 145,348 
&103, Team "A" will have their system disallowed or be asked to 
modify the system.
Team "B" running the same system WILL be able to continue using 
their system as long as it does not damage the carpet during a match.

Q1) Is this correct?

Q2) In the pits WILL you disallow a system that MAY damage the 
carpet 
if pulled or breaks traction? 

Q3) If so, shouldn't both Team "A" and "B" have to modify their 
system BEFORE competing?

I understand the reluctance of the moderator of this forum to not 
identify specific systems that are legal and illegal when it comes 
to the traction and other robot design issues?but?
With such an emphasis on traction this year I believe there must be 
a CLEAR understanding of what is allowed and what is not allowed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


A)  Teams posted questions asking for clarification on traction 
systems.  There have been responds answering similar questions 
earlier, but we will clarify it again.

The short answer is:  If your mechanism actually damages the carpet, 
and it is likely that it will happen again, then it is not allowed.  
If your mechanism actually damages the carpet, but not likely that 
it will happen again, then it is allowed.  If your mechanism doesn't 
damage the carpet, then it is allowed.

Long answer:

Teams may use allowed material to gain traction on their robot, as 
long as they DO NOT damage the surface of the playing field, the 
carpet, or the balls.  (rule DQ4 and M11)  This will be checked by 
inspector during robot inspection at registration on the first event 
day and throughout the competition.  The inspectors will determine 
whether the potential for damage to the carpet is great or not.  

During matches, if your robot damages the carpet, the referees will 
determine if the damage to the field occurs due to a scenario that 
is unlikely to repeat.  If the damages are likely to repeat, the 
mechanism must be modified to the referees?satisfaction in order
to 
continue being used.  If the damages are unlikely to repeat, the 
mechanism causing the damage will not be disallowed.  Either case, 
if the field is being damaged during a match, the referees may 
decide to disable the robots causing the damage (i.e. the one 
dragging and/or the one doing the damage)in order to prevent 
further damage during the match.  (Message 348)

If your robot is dragged across the field by another machine and the 
carpet is damaged, it will be considered your robots fault and you 
will have to make any changes necessary. (Message 288)  Whichever 
mechanism damaging the carpet will be examined, whether the damaging 
is caused by another robot or not.

During inspection, there are only so many ways the inspectors can do 
to see if a system will damage the carpet/playing field or not.  The 
bottom line is, if the inspectors believes that the robot WILL NOT 
damage the carpet/playing field, then the final ruling will be based 
on actual performance.  If damages occur, then your robot will be 
examined.  If damages don't occur, then you are allowed to use the 
mechanism.  

You should be prepared to remove the device if it is ruled that the 
potential for damage to the carpet is great.  (Message 145)

Mean while, we suggest that teams do testing before competition.  
Run the robot on a section of competition carpet against a wall, or 
push/pull the robot on the carpet, and see if damages occur.  Use 
different ways of testing, and modify the system until there are no 
damages on the carpet.


>Team "B" running the same system WILL be able to continue using 
>their system as long as it does not damage the carpet during a 
>match.
>Q1) Is this correct?

A1) Yes, team "B" running the same system WILL be able to continue 
using their system BECAUSE it does not damage the carpet during a 
match.

As long as your robot is the one damaging the carpet/playing field, 
inspectors/referees will examine your robot can determine the 
damaging is likely to happen again.  If so, you will be asked to 
modify the robot until the inspectors/referees are satisfied with it.

>Q2) In the pits WILL you disallow a system that MAY damage the 
>carpet if pulled or breaks traction? 

A2) In the pits, it will be up to the inspectors to determine if a 
system MAY damage the carpet if pulled or breaks traction.  The 
inspectors will determine whether the potential for damage to the 
carpet is great or not, and if so, the inspector may disallow a 
system until he/she is satisfy with it.  You should be prepared to 
remove the device if it is ruled that the potential for damage to 
the carpet is great.

>Q3) If so, shouldn't both Team "A" and "B" have to modify their 
>system BEFORE competing?

A3)  Again, it is up to the referees/inspectors to determine whether 
the potential for damage to the carpet is great or not.  The bottom 
line is, if your robot does the actual damage on the carpet/playing 
field, it will be examined.  As long as damages occur, teams will 
have to modify their robot until damages stop.

--------
FIRST KL







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:29:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Latex Tubing

>1) We have ordered latex tubing from Small Parts (the same as 
>supplied in the kit), but it is on back order.  Can we use what we 
>have left from last year's robot if the order is not filled in time?

>2) The inspection check list specifically says no more than 5 feet 
>of latex tubing for throwing the ball.  If I am not using the 
>tubing to throw the ball, and I bought the additional tubing from 
>Small Parts (see above) is there any limit on the amount of tubing 
>used?

A1)  If the parts are backordered, then you can go to any one you 
want but it must be the exact same part as you would have bought 
from Small Parts.  (Message 483)

A2)  There is no limit on the amount of latex tubing you can use as 
long as they come from small parts (or any place due to the 
backorder status you mentioned above), and not using to throw the 
balls.  (The robot will still have to follow the 130 lbs limit, so 
don't go all out and buy 120~130 lbs of latex tubing).

There is, however, a 5 feet limit if you are using the latex tubing 
to launch balls.  (rule S6)

-FIRST KL




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:59:10 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Small Parts parts

>Since the Small Parts catalogue itself can be put on the robot, can 
>packing materials that small parts sends orders in be used as well?

A)  No.  See rule K1.  "The Kit containers, part packaging, and any 
documentation in the Kit container may not be used to build the 
device."

-FIRST KL




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:12:52 -0000
   From: "mansfieldrobotics" <mansfieldrobotics@yahoo.com>
Subject: Third Controller

Is it legal to use three controllers?

- Mansfield Robotics




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:11:45 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Third Controller

NO.  You are only allowed to use the control system that you were 
provided from the 2002 kit of parts.  
first-t

> Is it legal to use three controllers?
> 





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:22:16 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Lap tops

>Team 191 the X-Cats wants to know if we are allowed to type into a 
>lap top for calculating and monitoring the score, etc. if it is not 
>used to input to the robot's controls.

A)  It is allowable for the coach/mentor or any students to keep 
track of team scorews, while in the alliance station, using a hand 
held electronic devices or laptop.  Remember power will not be 
provided for these devices.

There are no regulation for usage of electronic devices or laptop 
OUTSIDE the alliance station, and you may do whatever you want with 
them (including calculating and monitoring the score, play computer 
games, etc.).   

-FIRST KL




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:15:59 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pneumatics

>We were wondering if it was required to wire the air compressor 
>through the Spike relay-it is unclear in the manual.
>Ideally, we would like to keep the compressor on for the whole 
>match-would this be allowed?

In the Pneumatics manual, it indicate that "A spike relay should be 
used to control the power to the compressor.  Ensure that the relay 
is programmed to provide 'forward' power only to the compressor.  Do 
not reverse the compressor!"

We strongly recommend you wire the Spike relay through the Spike 
relay.

Yes, you may keep the compressor on for the whole match.

Look in Team update #5 @ 
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_art3.htm for information 
regarding the control of operation of the pump using the pressure 
switches in the kit. 

-FIRST KL




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:59:52 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Back to Back Regionals

Q: Suppose a team is going to two regionals on back to back weekends.
It seems impossible to meet the requirements of having the robots at 
                drayage the Monday before regional 2 when you tell us 
that the robots 
will still be in drayage from regional 1 on Monday.

What should we do in these cases?

Of course I realize that there must be some acceptions made for these 
cases but what will they be and what does a team have to do to make 
 it all work out in the end?

A: All teams are responsible for shipping.  If the team determines the 
robot must be picked up on Saturday, the team needs to make the 
arrangements with drayage for that event and the shipper to have it 
done.  If it will arrive at the next site late, the team needs to 
contact drayage and make special arrangements for handling to get it 
to the site.  If drayage charges extra for the special handling, the 
team has to arrange to pay the extra.

With over 600 teams , it's just impossible for FIRST to make calls and 
the special arrangements.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:39:24 -0800
   From: Doug Hogg <pinewood@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Pneumatics

Hi,

I didn't understand what you meant by "wire the Spike relay through 
the Spike relay".

Doug Hogg
Team 980

>  >We were wondering if it was required to wire the air compressor
>>through the Spike relay-it is unclear in the manual.
>>Ideally, we would like to keep the compressor on for the whole
>>match-would this be allowed?
>
>In the Pneumatics manual, it indicate that "A spike relay should be
>used to control the power to the compressor.  Ensure that the relay
>is programmed to provide 'forward' power only to the compressor.  Do
>not reverse the compressor!"
>
>We strongly recommend you wire the Spike relay through the Spike
>relay.
>
>Yes, you may keep the compressor on for the whole match.
>
>Look in Team update #5 @
>http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_art3.htm for information
>regarding the control of operation of the pump using the pressure
>switches in the kit.
>
>-FIRST KL
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>FRCtech2002-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:01:16 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Clarification on RE: Pneumatics message 738

You may also power the pneumatic pump by a Speed Controller using a 
20A or 30A breaker, as stated by Team update #4.

So you may use a Spike relay or a Speed controller with a breaker to power the pneumatic pump.  
Sorry if there are any confusion in message 738.

-FIRST KL


>We were wondering if it was required to wire the air compressor 
>through the Spike relay-it is unclear in the manual.
>Ideally, we would like to keep the compressor on for the whole 
>match-would this be allowed?

>A)  In the Pneumatics manual, it indicate that "A spike relay 
should be 
>used to control the power to the compressor. Ensure that the relay 
>is programmed to provide 'forward' power only to the compressor. Do 
>not reverse the compressor!"

>We strongly recommend you wire the Spike relay through the Spike 
>relay.

>Yes, you may keep the compressor on for the whole match.

>Look in Team update #5 @ 
>http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_art3.htm for information 
>regarding the control of operation of the pump using the pressure 
>switches in the kit. 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
   Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:18:40 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Yearbook and Robot Checklist

Q: You said in message 711 that the yearbook and robot checklist 
                templates would be posted no later than Friday.  Where 
will they be 
                posted?  It is Friday (2/8), 4:24 EDT, and I have yet 
to find them on 
                the FIRST site.  Will they be posted as Team Update 6 
or are they 
                already posted somewhere else?

A: Ok, so shoot us already. We've been dealing with a few other 
things. We expect the yearbook page to now be available Monday, 2/11, 
sometime EST. We'll let you know when it's there.

-FIRST MW




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/