Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:04:49 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 37


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There are 19 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Correct Pin Size For Drill Motor Coupling Kit
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. RE:  light placement
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: motor and fuses
           From: "dodd_stacy" <dodd.stacy@valley.net>
      4. Yearbook page and regional agendas / drayage
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. battery orientation
           From: "ahsrobotics2002" <robotics@aviators.stark.k12.oh.us>
      6. Woodie Flowers Award
           From: "slocker43607" <arteest12@aol.com>
      7. pneumatic tubing
           From: "phsfirst2002" <YocumR@parklandsd.org>
      8. Re: battery orientation
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Re: Woodie Flowers Award
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: pneumatic tubing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Chairman's Time Limit
           From: "cmconley5" <cmconley5@yahoo.com>
     12. RE:  Gearing Up and Gearing Down Drill Motors
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. Re: Chairman's Time Limit
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: material & extrusion
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Re: Ramming of Robots
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. RE: Threaded Rod
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. RE: Robot Bill of Materials
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Damaging balls
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. RE: Fastener question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:15:20 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Correct Pin Size For Drill Motor Coupling Kit

>The kit information on the drill motor coupling sold by Small Parts 
says to lock the coupling by inserting a 1/16" steel spring roll pin 
>through the coupling and a hole that is drilled through the shaft.  
The coupling we recived was suplied with an 1/8" dia solid steel 
>pin, but the coupling has a 1/16" hole in it.
What is the corect size pin to use to lock coupling to the shaft to 
>prevent rotation?  I seam to rember that there was a change in the 
recomended pin size and type last year but have seen nothing 
>mentioned this year.

A) Use the 1/8" dia steel pin that came with the coupling, and use 
the 1/16" hole on the coupling as a guide to drill a larger hole 
just right for the 1/8" pin.  Keep in mind that you don't want
the 
pin slipping out of the coupling accidentally.  

-FIRST KL




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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:08:10 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  light placement

>if the top of the robot has no space for the light, can you also 
put it on the side, sideways, or wherever we want or are there 
>specific rules on where the light can be placed?

A)  You are not required to mount the light on top of the robot.

See rule M8 for specifics:  

The light must be mounted UPRIGHT on the robot such 
that the color is visible in at least 4 locations 90 degrees apart 
around the sides of the robot from a distance of at least 50 feet.  
The light should be mounted to allow easy changeover of the colored 
lens before matches.

-FIRST KL




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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:15:10 -0000
   From: "dodd_stacy" <dodd.stacy@valley.net>
Subject: Re: motor and fuses

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> Hello
> 
> Q:                 We have big problem with a motor, speed 
controller
>                  and/or fuses. We decided to use tracks as our drive
>                  system. To power that we are using big 200W motors.
>                  After few tests we have discovered that one of the
>                  motors is being constantly cut off after no more 
than
>                  30 seconds of working . We have investigated the
>                  problem and discovered that 30A fuse goes off each
>                  time. We have replaced all parts including speed
>                  controller ,  fuses and wires but nothing has 
> changed.
>                  We have even connected for a while  the speed
>                  controller to two 30A fuses but this didn't help
>                  either. 
>                  Next step is connecting two speed controllers to 
the
>                  same motor so we could send to the motor 60A 
current
>                  from two fuses but we are not sure if this will 
help.
>                  This motor gets extremely hot very fast (on 30A
>                  current) and we are wondering if this isn't
>                  malfunction of the motor itself. We are also using 
> the
>                  second motor to power the other track and this one
>                  works fine despite the fact that it's connected in 
> the
>                  same way. We would be grateful for any hints....
> 
>                  Piotr  Perczynski
>                  group 704
> 
> A: #1, DO NOT CONNECT TWO SPEED CONTROLLERS TO ONE MOTOR as this is 
> not allowed and will likely burn up both speed controllers.
> 
> #2, Track drive systems like this are notorious power hogs when 
> turning. Look for extra friction in that side, if it's only one 
side 
> you're having trouble with. Refer to section 1.2.1 of The Robot, 
> there's a 2 page section discussing tips on working with large 
> motors. If it turns out to be a defective motor, we can replace it 
for 
> you but only if it was shipped that way.
> 
> -MW

Piotr,

Try swapping the two motors, left for right.  If the problem follows 
the motor, the motor may be defective.  If the problem stays with the 
same track drive module, the problem is friction or misalignment in 
the drive.  You should also be able to feel whether the drive 
friction is substantially different when turning over the drives by 
hand, with the motors disconnected.  Also, if you are using the drill 
motors and gearboxes, is it possible that the gearbox on the hot 
motor is stuck in HI when you intend for it to run in LO?  Good luck.

Dodd Stacy
Team 95




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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:53:49 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Yearbook page and regional agendas / drayage

....will be coming out no later than Friday. No need to inform us that 
it's not there yet. Thanks.

-MW




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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 18:47:28 -0000
   From: "ahsrobotics2002" <robotics@aviators.stark.k12.oh.us>
Subject: battery orientation

Can we place the battery on a side.

Alliance HS Team 808




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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:40:49 -0000
   From: "slocker43607" <arteest12@aol.com>
Subject: Woodie Flowers Award

We are team 279 and we are wondering if we are allowed to nominate a 
person(adult) on our team that works at Dana.  They are not a teacher 
or a engineer, but they are a corporate mentor from the facility.  
Would that be allowed??


THANK YOU!!!
Team 279




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Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:50:26 -0000
   From: "phsfirst2002" <YocumR@parklandsd.org>
Subject: pneumatic tubing

When using hollow aluminum tubing are teams allowed to run the 
pneumatic hose inside the support frame of their robot? 

How about Electrical wires?




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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:42:56 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: battery orientation


> Can we place the battery on a side.


A) Yes. Please note the lines regarding the battery on the robot on 
the Inspection checklist provided in Team Update #4

---
FIRST MRT
 




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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:43:34 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Woodie Flowers Award

> We are team 279 and we are wondering if we are allowed to nominate a 
> person(adult) on our team that works at Dana.  They are not a 
teacher 
> or a engineer, but they are a corporate mentor from the facility.  
> Would that be allowed??
> 

A) Yes.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:44:30 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: pneumatic tubing

> When using hollow aluminum tubing are teams allowed to run the 
> pneumatic hose inside the support frame of their robot? 

A) Yes.

> How about Electrical wires?

A) Yes.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 02:36:33 -0000
   From: "cmconley5" <cmconley5@yahoo.com>
Subject: Chairman's Time Limit

Is the reading of the Executive Summary included in the 10 minute time
length for the Chairman's Award submission?  For example, would you be
disqualified for submitting a 10 minute video, since you left no time
for the judges to review your 1 page executive summary?  Thanks!

Sincerely,
Caroline Conley
Gunn Robotics, Team #192






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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:05:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Gearing Up and Gearing Down Drill Motors

>The drill motors given to us in the kit of parts have the ability 
>to change speeds (i.e. gear up and gear down) using the 
>additional "attachment" that also came in the kit (was part of the 
>drill before you took it apart). In order to take advantage of this 
>gear up/gear down feature, we somehow have to move a small metal 
>bar located on the side of the "attachment." 

>Question: The only feasible way we can do this is by using a 
>solenoid that physically moves this bar up and down. However, I 
>couldn't find solenoids at Small Parts Inc. and they're not on the 
>Additional List of Parts. How do we go about taking advantage of 
>the gear up/gear down feature of the drill motor???

A)  You can download the pneumatic manual in the FIRST website at 
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_art1.htm .  In the pneumatic 
manual you will find FIRST Pneumatic Component Bill of Material, and 
the Order Form.  See rule M13 and M14 for specifics regarding 
pneumatic components.  Also, you may use up to 5 cylinders on the 
robot.  See message 334 and 362.

As for taking advantage of the gear up/gear down feature of the 
drill motor on the drill transmission, you may also try using the 
motors included in the kit this year.  Beside using pneumatics, 
teams made successful "gear shifter" using servo motors from the kit.






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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:12:37 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Chairman's Time Limit


> Is the reading of the Executive Summary included in the 10 minute 
time
> length for the Chairman's Award submission?  For example, would you 
be
> disqualified for submitting a 10 minute video, since you left no 
time
> for the judges to review your 1 page executive summary? 

A) No, you would not be disqualified for that.  The executive summary 
is required as reference for the judging panel.  You can submit a 10 
minute video with your executive summary.

---
FIRST MRT




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Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:46:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: material & extrusion

>We have a solid bar of aluminum that is 2 inches by 3 inches. Is 
>that considered to be aluminum extrusion?

A)  Yes.  See message 273.

>I see a previous reply has said that square crossection aluminium 
>tubing counts as aluminium extrusion, but does square crossection 
>mild steel count as angle?  Would two pieces of angle fited 
>together to make a square crossection?

A)  Square cross-section mild steel does not count as angle.  You 
will have to use Steel Angle, Any Length, UP to 2"x2"x 1/4" thick, 
and fit them together to make a square cross-section.  

In the case of Aluminum, angle and extrusion are separated into two 
category as:  Aluminum Angle UP to 2"x2"x 1/4" thick, and Extruded 
Aluminum UP to 2"x3" cross-section.

>Can we use extruded steel. Not for the structure purposes.

You may use Steel Angle Any Length UP to 2"x2"x 1/4" thick, or Steel 
Plate any amount up to 1/4" thick, or anything from Small Parts, 
INC.  The steel extrusion can only come from Small Parts.

--------
FIRST KL




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Message: 15
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:22:28 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ramming of Robots

Q: The analogy with football is good, but still worrisome.  If our 
                robot's intent is to change the direction of another 
robot (not to 
                damage it), by ramming it at high speed, would this be 
                judged "malicious" and disqualify our robot?

                Similarly, if our intent is to make the other robot 
"fumble" by 
                dislodging the goal from its grasp, would the 
high-speed collision be 
                judged malicious and disqualify our robot?

                Would the design of the other robot influence the 
judges' decision?  
                That is, if the opposing robot looks rugged, then the 
judges might 
                rule in our favor, but if the opposing robot is 
flimsy, they may rule 
                against us.

A: Worrisome? Hmm. What you're asking us to do is allow you to blitz
the quarterback with no possibility of penalty, no matter what you do.

If you've ever been a football fan, think about it. Your actions would 
probably be taken as malicious. There's rules in football about 
people hitting the quarterback in the head (at all) and
about unnecessary roughness. This is probably because in the early 
days of football, the referees' union got tired of hearing, "Hey ref I 
wasn't trying to hurt him, I was just trying to make him fumble!". Or, 
"Hey, he's a wimpy quarterback! A tough one would have taken that hit!". 
In the NFL, they don't judge whether the linebacker is roughing 
the passer by whether the QB is Dante Culpepper or Doug Flutie.

-MW




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Message: 16
   Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:57:55 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Threaded Rod

>The Additional Material list specifically says that threaded rod is 
>allowable up to 1/4 inch in diameter and 20" long.  However it also 
>says any quantity of rod is available up to 1 inch in diameter.  Do 
>we really have to thread the rod ourselves to use diameters larger 
>than 1/4 inch?  

A)  Yes.  You can only use up to 1/4" diameter threaded rod up to 
20", 20 Pitch Coarse Thread, or you can get up to 1" diamter Metal 
Shaft, any amount, and thread the shaft yourself.

-FIRST KL




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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:00:39 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Robot Bill of Materials

>Teams must submit a detailed, as constructed bill of materials at 
>hte point of inspection. I s this a standard document or one of our 
>design. We've been unable to find reference to same.

A)  The bill of material is part of the "Yearbook Page and Materials 
List" you must bring to competition to provide the inspectors 
necessary parts information.  Refer to section 12.4 
of "Administrative/Drayage/Shipping Section" in the manual or online 
documents @ http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_art1.htm for details 
of Official Robot inspection.  Refer to Section 14 
of "Administrative/Drayage/Shipping Section" about Yearbook page 
requirements.  

The manual indicates that FIRST will post the project and formats of 
the Yearbook Page as the competition season nears.  That has been 
confirmed by a message earlier that said the Yearbook page will be 
coming out no later than Friday.  See message 711.

-FIRST KL




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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:34:44 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Damaging balls

Q: According to the rule book, we cannot use adhesives which would 
                damage the ball/playing field. Team 191 the X-Cats 
would like to know 
                if scuffing the balls with a wheelchair wheel is 
considered "damaging 
                the ball".

A: Nope, we expect scuff marks on the ball due to tire throwing 
mechanisms. Just not ripping them apart.




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Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:09:21 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Fastener question

>We are considering using rivets, specifically open end blind pop 
>rivets.
>The additional accepted parts list shows that any amount of 
>fasteners are allowed.  While it may seem like an obvious 
>association, are rivets acceptible fasteners under this rule.  I 
>can find no specific reference to rivets in the documentation.

>While small parts does sell a type of rivet it is not what we need, 
>and before we order from another supplier we just need a little 
>clairification.

A)  Yes, rivets are acceptable as fasteners under the Additional 
Hardware list:  Fasteners, Washers, Nuts, Adhesives-  Any amount/size




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