Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:11:01 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 21


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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Modular Designs and Backup Pieces
           From: Jeremy Leibs <jleibs@neometron.com>
      2. Onfield IO
           From: "youre_not_me_3" <vaderman12@aol.com>
      3. Controls Rule C12
           From: "Larry Barello" <lbarello@qwest.net>
      4. Re: Current Measurement
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: Controls Rule C12
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. Re: Small Motor
           From: "levine696" <danny.levine@zimmer.com>
      7. Re: Dragging Robots
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: Onfield IO
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Crate in the pit area?
           From: "jluvera" <jluvera@yahoo.com>
     10. Small Parts Question
           From: "glenncapone" <gcapone@aac-robot.com>
     11. wood
           From: "hurdler544" <hurdler544@yahoo.com>
     12. Alliance Station
           From: "trj122172" <trj76@hotmail.com>
     13. Waiting on Parts
           From: "bcitwest" <jfgrater@grater.com>
     14. sheet metal and others
           From: "add66us" <xzs7ws@ype.gmpt.gmeds.com>
     15. Re: Modular Designs and Backup Pieces
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Crate in the pit area?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Re: Small Parts Question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: Alliance Station
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Waiting on Parts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: sheet metal and others
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Small Motor
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. goal movement
           From: "wasssoap" <kenny.ardizzone@motorola.com>
     23. Re: Game Questions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     24. Atwood Questions
           From: "chubtoad6" <chubtoad6@yahoo.com>
     25. Being specific (176)
           From: "grandrulemaster176" <nluban@aol.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:43:35 -0800
   From: Jeremy Leibs <jleibs@neometron.com>
Subject: Modular Designs and Backup Pieces

Could you clarify the rules on the following:

1) Having a robot with multiple "configurations."  Can you switch out parts
on a robot as long as in any given configuration the robot is under the 130
requirement, even if the sum of the robot and all of the modular pieces is
greater than 130?

2) Do backup pieces/replacement parts have to be shipped in your crate along
with the robot?  For example if you have a gripper prone to breaking
(obviously this should be avoided since planning on anything breaking is
bad) and you want to have 2 or 3 spares to replace the other one in the
event that it's broken, do these have to be shipped to FIRST along with your
robot or not?  If yes, what about non-fabricated pieces like nuts/bolts or
even motors and the corresponding tools for making last minute tweaks.

3) Most teams tend to have carts to support their robot/move it around on.
Can the cart be made out of materials outside the scope of the additional
hardware list since it serves no function in the actual competition?  Also,
does the cart have to be shipped w/ the robot?

Basically, a list of what FIRSTs rules will be in terms of bringing stuff to
the competition with us would be appreciated.

Thanks

--JL




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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:01:28 -0000
   From: "youre_not_me_3" <vaderman12@aol.com>
Subject: Onfield IO

Yo... quick question.
   Last year my team cooked up a cool little IO device that was 
separate from our main controls and we could use quckly on the field 
(on tether) to retract certain parts of our robot that posed a safety 
risk. Different judges ruled differently on if we could use it or not 
but this year Rule GM6 states (in part):

"The Robot control system will not be re-enabled after a match; 
however, teams may use the tether feature to make any necessary 
adjustments to the robot in order to release balls or goals."

This sounds like the unit is OK. However, rule C28 states:

"Teams may not use Innovation First Operator Interfaces from previous 
years competitions."

And that is of course what we had done. So it sounds like it's legal, 
but only if you go out and buy another OI module. Is it possible to 
use a previous years interface for such a device, seeing as it would 
not have any purpose (and would not be used) during competition. This 
would make it a lot simpler (and a lot faster) than disconnecting our 
entire control system and dragging it out on the field. And since we 
allready have a design an prototype for such a device it would save 
our team some time in designing an easy breakaway control system.

any enlightenment you could provide would be greatly appreciated!

-Crash
Team 42




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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:37:46 -0800
   From: "Larry Barello" <lbarello@qwest.net>
Subject: Controls Rule C12

Per C12 only one motor may be connected to a Victor Speed control  The
documentation and the rules are not clear about this:

Can I connect TWO speed controllers to one motor?

Thanks!




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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:32:17 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Current Measurement

> May we place a clamp-on ammeter with a millivolt output on the wire
> leading out of the 60A circuit breaker in order to measure total
> current draw during a match?

A) No.  You may use such a meter while building your robot in order
to 
aid in design and testing.  However, such a meter does not satisfy
the 
rules for custom electronics on the robot, and thus may not be used 
during competition play.  Please see the top part of Message 143.

If you wish to to measure total battery current during a match, you 
may pass the wire coming out of the 60 Amp circuit breaker through the 
plastic enclosure for the custom circuit board, and use a shunt or 
other electronics on the custom circuit board to measure the 
electrical current.  If you do this, please be careful, because the 
battery can supply in excess of 200 Amps.

-----
ER





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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:33:07 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Controls Rule C12

> Per C12, only one motor may be connected to a Victor Speed control. 
The documentation and the rules are not clear about this:
> 
> Can I connect TWO speed controllers to one motor?

A) No.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:48:56 -0000
   From: "levine696" <danny.levine@zimmer.com>
Subject: Re: Small Motor

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> > In the kit there is a motor that has no markings. It is the 
> > smallest motor in the kit.  It looks like a motor you would find 
in 
> a remote control car.  The end that connect wires are female 
> connectors I looked at several drawings of motors and can not seem 
to 
> > find the specs or if it comes with gears. 
> 
> A) The small motor is the Johnson Electric motor.  The specs will be 
> in Team Update #3 today.  It has no mating gears of any sort.  
> FIRSTsnow

Dear FIRST:

What has become of Team Update #3 which was to be posted last Friday.
It does not appear to be on www.usfirst.org.

Thanks.

DLL




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Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:58:10 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dragging Robots

> In response to your earlier ruling that a robot may drag another 
> robot but the refs may deem it as either "malicious" or "poor 
> robot design," what happens if the refs call it "poor robot 
> design"?  Does the team that owns the robot need to fix their 
> robot so it won't harm other robots in the future or do they get to 
keep on damaging other robots accidentally?

A) I have faith that our referees will make the correct call on this 
and I also have faith that "gracious professionalism" will prevail.  
FIRSTsnow




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Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:41:50 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Onfield IO

> Last year my team cooked up a cool little IO device that was 
> separate from our main controls and we could use quckly on the 
field (on tether) to retract certain parts of our robot that posed a 
safety risk.  Different judges ruled differently on if we could use 
it or not but this year Rule GM6 states (in part):
> 
> "The Robot control system will not be re-enabled after a match; 
> however, teams may use the tether feature to make any necessary 
> adjustments to the robot in order to release balls or goals."
> 
> This sounds like the unit is OK.  However, rule C28 states:
> 
> "Teams may not use Innovation First Operator Interfaces from 
previous years competitions."

A) You may use last year's for tether purposes but NOT for use at the 
driver station.  Every year, the OI is improved and this year's OI 
has better frequency control and is the only one you can use to drive 
your robot remotely from the driver station.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 9
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:30:50 -0000
   From: "jluvera" <jluvera@yahoo.com>
Subject: Crate in the pit area?

According to the crate limit specs on page 9-10 under section 9.2, it 
states that "crates are removed from Pit Stations and stored by the 
drayage company during competitions".

Does this mean that no crates will be permitted in the pit area.  We 
would like to use our crate to lock up our tools and other 
equipment.  Please clarify on this.

Thanks,
Team 637




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Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:34:38 -0000
   From: "glenncapone" <gcapone@aac-robot.com>
Subject: Small Parts Question

I spoke with someone at Small Parts about ordering some parts. The 
person informed me that "...because they were no longer the exclusive 
supplier to FIRST teams..." they did not stock up their inventory to 
be able to respond to FIRST teams. I was looking for six of the part 
I inquired about, they had four in stock and doubted that those are 
even available.

My question is regarding the "exclusive supplier" comment: can we 
purchase components similar to those in the Small Parts catalog, or 
even items not avaliable in the catalog such as different size 
bearings or gears, from any source we can find? Specifically; 
gears, pulleys, casters, and bearings.

Thanks,
Glenn Capone
Adult Mentor Team 562




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Message: 11
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:20:17 -0000
   From: "hurdler544" <hurdler544@yahoo.com>
Subject: wood

according to the kit of parts list, it says you can use any length of 
wood that is 3/4" by 3' 1/2".  Does this mean you can use a piece of 
wood that is a perfectg square, say 3.5 by 3.5 by 3.5?  Also, does 
this mean you can use a piece of wood which is 10' by 3' by 2.5'.  




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Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:39:00 -0000
   From: "trj122172" <trj76@hotmail.com>
Subject: Alliance Station

   A couple questions here pertaining to the alliance station. 

    1. what are the specs of the alliance station, such as if there 
is a wall separating the two stations for team members a and b of one 
alliance, and if there is a wall behind where the ten balls are 
stored in the alliance station

    2. Is one team in the alliance allowed to move into the other 
alternate station of the other team member?
    





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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:19:55 -0000
   From: "bcitwest" <jfgrater@grater.com>
Subject: Waiting on Parts

When can we expect the missing parts to be shipped? (the light, wire, 
and battery connectors for example.




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Message: 14
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:00:53 -0000
   From: "add66us" <xzs7ws@ype.gmpt.gmeds.com>
Subject: sheet metal and others

Q)  Would sheet aluminum fall under under the additional materials
list for 'plate aluminum'?
Thanks




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Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:54:09 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Modular Designs and Backup Pieces

> Could you clarify the rules on the following:
> 
> 1) Having a robot with multiple "configurations."  Can you switch 
out parts on a robot as long as in any given configuration the robot 
is under the 130 requirement, even if the sum of the robot and all of 
the modular pieces is greater than 130?

A) Yes.  All components must be presented when weighing your robot.  
FIRSTsnow


> 2) Do backup pieces/replacement parts have to be shipped in your 
crate along with the robot?  For example, if you have a gripper prone 
to breaking (obviously this should be avoided since planning on 
anything breaking is bad) and you want to have 2 or 3 spares to 
replace the other one in the event that it's broken, do these have to 
be shipped to FIRST along with your robot or not?  If yes, what about 
non-fabricated pieces like nuts/bolts or even motors and the 
corresponding tools for making last minute tweaks.

A) First, you do not (and better not) ship your robots to FIRST, they 
go to drayage and the events.  Anything fabricated must be shipped 
with the robot.  Conversely, anything still in its original form from 
the Kit or the Additonal Hardware List or Small Parts can be carried 
to the event.  You can build anything you want at the events.  
FIRSTsnow


> 3) Most teams tend to have carts to support their robot/move it 
around on.  Can the cart be made out of materials outside the scope 
of the additional hardware list since it serves no function in the 
actual competition?

A) You may make the carts out of anything you wish.  This is totally 
unregulated.  FIRSTsnow


> Does the cart have to be shipped w/ the robot?

A) No.  FIRSTsnow





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Message: 16
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:35:40 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Crate in the pit area?

> According to the crate limit specs on page 9-10 under section 9.2, 
it states that "crates are removed from Pit Stations and stored by 
the drayage company during competitions".  Does this mean that no 
crates will be permitted in the pit area.  We would like to use our 
crate to lock up our tools and other equipment.

A) All crates will be removed from the pit area as the space is very 
limited.  You will need to make other arrangements for tool 
security.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 17
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:05:01 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Small Parts Question

> I spoke with someone at Small Parts about ordering some parts.  The 
> person informed me that "...because they were no longer the 
exclusive supplier to FIRST teams..." they did not stock up their 
inventory to be able to respond to FIRST teams.  I was looking for 
six of the part I inquired about.  They had four in stock and doubted 
that those are even available.
> 
> My question is regarding the "exclusive supplier" comment: can we 
> purchase components similar to those in the Small Parts catalog, or 
> even items not avaliable in the catalog such as different size 
> bearings or gears, from any source we can find?  Specifically; 
> gears, pulleys, casters, and bearings.

A) If Small Parts usually carries something you want but is 
backordered or out of stock, you can go any where you want to obtain 
it.  It must be an exact match to what SPI would have carried.  You 
cannot buy anything that you could not have found in the Small Parts 
catalog.  FIRSTsnow





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Message: 18
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:14:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Alliance Station

> A couple questions here pertaining to the alliance station. 
> 
> 1. what are the specs of the alliance station, such as if there 
> is a wall separating the two stations for team members a and b of 
one alliance and is there is a wall behind where the ten balls are 
> stored in the alliance station?

A) There is no separating wall and there is no wall behind where the 
10 balls are placed, just white tape on the carpet.  FIRSTsnow


> 2. Is one team in the alliance allowed to move into the other 
> alternate station of the other team member?

A) No.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 19
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:17:06 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Waiting on Parts

> When can we expect the missing parts to be shipped? (the light, 
wire, and battery connectors for example.

A) We are very hopeful that they will be shipped this week... and 
they will go to rookie teams first.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 20
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:20:29 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: sheet metal and others

> Would sheet aluminum fall under under the additional materials
> list for 'plate aluminum'?

A) Certainly sounds like it.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 21
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:23:39 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Small Motor

> What has become of Team Update #3 which was to be posted last 
Friday which was to have the specs for the Johnson Motor?

A) It will be posted today... sorry for the delay.  FIRSTsnow






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Message: 22
   Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:18:38 -0000
   From: "wasssoap" <kenny.ardizzone@motorola.com>
Subject: goal movement

May a robot lift a goal and place it outside the playing field so 
long as it doen't damage anything and only the legal area for 
attaching to the goal is used?

KA-108





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Message: 23
   Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:33:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Game Questions

> 1. When an additional piece of hardware is listed as "up to 12 
> thermoplastic hoods for 15 pin connectors" for example, does that 
> allow a team to buy as many as they want (say, 24) but use only 12 
> during competition?  Or, are the teams only allowed to buy 12?

A) Use up to 12 during competition but you can have more as spares.  
FIRSTsnow


> 2.  What is allowed with respect to the 10 soccer balls behind the 
> end walls of the playing field?  Or, is that left open for 
> interpretation as long as the mentor doesn't place a ball into the 
> playing field?

A) Not knowing what your real intent is here, I cannot answer.  
FIRSTsnow


> 3.  When should we expect the "shipped to teams" and "supplemental 
> kit"?

A) The "Shipped to Teams" should be shipped this week.  
The "Supplemental Kit" you should have received.  It had the 
Microsoft software, the 2 joy sticks, and the pneumatics kit in 1 
cardboard box.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 24
   Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:52:40 -0000
   From: "chubtoad6" <chubtoad6@yahoo.com>
Subject: Atwood Questions

Can the Atwood Mobile motor take side load pressure? and if not, Is 
there anywhere to obtain a backup gear for the Diametral pitch of 36 
part?




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Message: 25
   Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:41:54 -0000
   From: "grandrulemaster176" <nluban@aol.com>
Subject: Being specific (176)

1. If the robot was to grab the goal inbetween the two levels and 
lift it from the bottom of the top level, would this be legal?

2. could the robot pull the goal up a wedge shaped side with the 
casters resting on the face of the robot?

3. If the casters were to accidentally touch the robot during the 
lifting process in Q#1, would this be illegal?






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