Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:44:21 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 14


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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Buying extra pneumatic parts, total $$ amount for construction
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. Re: "50-yd line"
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: Wheel Hubs
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Re: Kit of Parts Question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: Digest Number 10
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. Re: Potentiometers
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      7. Contradictions......
           From: "mnjrush" <mike.rush@gm.com>
      8. Re: Contradictions / Clarifying Reacting Against Lower Surface......
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      9. Contacting the Lower Field Barrier
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. Re: How long does it take
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     11. Pneumatics manual missing
           From: "phsfirst2002" <YocumR@parklandsd.org>
     12. Re: Suppliers for Flanges and Casters
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     13. Re: Small Parts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Back to Small Part problems
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Re: Chairman's Award
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Tether
           From: "dbk616" <Dbk616@aol.com>
     17. Re: the game
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     18. Re: tethered projectial
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Optical Sensor code
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: backboard height
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. Re: Chairmans Award
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: Rutgers Competition
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     23. Re: Pneumatics manual missing
           From: James Benneyan <benneyan@coe.neu.edu>
     24. Re: Pneumatics manual missing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     25. Will Window Motor Hardware Be Suplied
           From: "robatrage" <aiwis1@cs.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:38:10 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Buying extra pneumatic parts, total $$ amount for construction

> What else besides what is in the kit can we buy in terms of 
> pneumatics?  Can we only buy extra cylinders with a limit of four 
> from the order form on the back of the pneumatics manual???  There 
is 
> no mention of any pneumatic parts on the additional parts list, Do 
> small parts offer any compatible parts?
>   
> Also is there a total dollar amount limit a team can spend on the 
> robot, whether it be from small parts, or additional hardware?

There is NO dollar limit for the amount spent on your robot. 

The only extra pneumatic parts that can be purchased are the 
cylinders, and no, pneumatic parts can NOT be used from Small Parts.
FIRST-t




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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:25:58 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "50-yd line"

> Will there now be a line of tape on the carpet to divide the entire 
> field into halves?  Perhaps a dotted line or construction-zone tape 
> or tape of a different color?
A) No.  It will be the Referee's best judgement.




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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:42:45 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wheel Hubs

> Can we order the wheel hub assembly?
A) Yes, from Small Parts, Inc.  See Robot Appendix D.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:47:49 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kit of Parts Question

> Couple Questions regarding the kit of parts:
> 
> 1: On the lost for the kit of parts one of the items loose in the 
green container is a "Torque Motor" and thats all it says about that 
item.  We cannot locate it, or at least we cannot identify it IF we do 
have it.  What does it look like?  Who makes it?  Also, we cannot 
locate/identify the "Torque Motor Anti-Rotation Bracket".  What does 
it look like?  
> 
> If we do infact not have them (which we think is the case), who 
should we contact?
> 
> 2: On the Kit of Parts list it says "Pneumatics Kit".  Accorss 
several message forums different teams aparently have different 
objects in their Kit's.  What is (and how many of them) are suppose to 
be in the kit?
> 
>The torque motor is bright orange and square shaped.  It's from a 
company called BELIMO and will have the name stamped on the front.  

The complete Pneumatics Bill of Materials is listed in the Pneumatics 
manual provided in the red container.  For other pneumatic questions 
please call:  954-429-9560.  This number is listed on the back page of 
the pneumatics manual.  
FIRST-t  





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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:00:07 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 10

> Regarding use of "old" parts, i.e,. parts that came with old kits 
such as motors, cylinders, etc, NOT parts that were machined or 
manufactured by your team in a previous year, in message # 85,  you 
respond to the following question:
> 
> > Stating M15. " All mechanisms on the robot should be 
> > fabricated/assembled by the 2002 team after the start of the Kick-
>  off 
> > Workshop. Mechanisms may not be reused from previous year's 
robots."
> > My question is;" Can we use parts from last year's kit such as: 
> > Air tanks, motors, or Seat Motor Assembly?
> 
> A) Only if it's in this year's kit and it's the same exact part.
> Remember that the seat positioning unit are not a part of this 
year's 
> kit. Also don't forget you can not exceed the quantities per part 
in 
> this year's Kit of Part list in Team Update #1.
> 
> Later, you respond to a similar question:
> 
> >Can we use parts from last year's kit such as air tanks, motors or 
> seat motor assembly?
> A) No... but many of the individual parts this year are the same as 
> last year. Do not exceed the specified quantities and absolutely no 
> mechanisms from prior years are to be used this year. FIRSTsnow
> 
> These answers seem to be contradictory.  Can you state clearly, are 
you allowed to use unaltered parts from a previous kit, or that have 
been previously purchased before this year's kickoff?
A) The "No... but..." above really meant yes.  WEe will be more 
straightforward in the future.  FIRSTsnow
 
> Another question:  I have sent two messages in the last two weeks, 
both of which were never posted or answered.  Is the lead time very 
long, are they getting lost, or do you just not have the answers yet? 
A) We are clearly backed up but are eating through them much quicker 
today.  Your messages do not show until we read them and approve them 
for posting.  FIRSTsnow

> A crucial rules question that others have asked as well concerns 
damage to the carpet.  In a situation where one robot pushes another 
and the carpet under the robot being pushed is damaged, who gets the 
penalty, the pusher or the pushee?
A) Several possibilities.  1-If the pushee's wheels have been 
modified from their "out of the box" state and this modification, in 
the Referee's opinion, is the cause of the carpet damage, then the 
pushee is at fault.  2-If the pushee gets tipped a bit and something 
snags on the carpet that would not have contacted the carpet had the 
robot not been tipped, then that's a Referee's judgement.  Hopefully, 
a Referee would see this happening and stop the pushing and "right" 
the tipped robot.  3- Many other scenarios, too numerous to 
speculate, could happen so they would become a Referee's decision.  
FIRSTsnow




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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:05:22 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Potentiometers

> In the Additional Parts List, there is an entry:
> 
> ***
> Potentiometer Any amount, 100k Ohms, linear taper
> ***
> 
> Does this disallow the more common rotational potentiometer?

No.  Rotational potentiometers are acceptable.  
Linear taper is not the same as linear motion
FIRST-t




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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:51:41 -0000
   From: "mnjrush" <mike.rush@gm.com>
Subject: Contradictions......

There is a contradiction in the answers to posts #120 and #287, which 
is correct?  Can you react against the lower surface of the upper 
plywood with out attaching to it or not? We are working under the 
information given and it appears to be changing.  (I've included both 
posts)

Mike Rush
Team 64

<<<POST 120>>>
From:  "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> 
Date:  Fri Jan 11, 2002  1:21 pm
Subject:  RE: Goal Construction & GM20

Q: GM20 states that a robot may not push or pull on the 2" Aluminum 
   angle on the upper plywood, however the parts list does not
include 
   any 2" Aluminum angle. Has this angle been replaced, and may a
   robot push or pull on its replacement?

   May a mechanism react against the lower surface of the upper
   plywood if it does not attach to it?

A: To be clear, see rules GM21 and GM22. A robot could react against 
   the lower surface of the upper plywood if it did not attach to it
   and did not present a risk of tipping the goal over.

   M4

<<<POST 287>>>
From: frcengineers  <frcengineers@y...> 
Date: Wed Jan 16, 2002 0:44pm
Subject: Re: Three Questions
                 
> 1. Can a robot deliberately interact with the bottom of the upper
> plywood platform of the goal (as long as it does not cause damage)?
A) No.  FIRSTsnow
                    
> 2. How many pneumatic cylinders are we allowed to use on our robot?
A) 7 (see answer #106).  FIRSTsnow

> 3. Is it acceptable to design our robot to contact the lower 
portion of the field barrier for a fixed distance (again assuming no 
damage)?
A) No.  See GM18.  FIRSTsnow





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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:35:54 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Contradictions / Clarifying Reacting Against Lower Surface......

> There is a contradiction in the answers to posts #120 and #287.  
Which is correct?  Can you react against the lower surface of the 
upper plywood with out attaching to it or not?
A) GM20 does NOT exclude interacting with the lower surface of the 
upper deck or, conversely, interacting with the upper surface of the 
lower deck.  However, if by interacting with the lower surface of the 
upper deck, for example, you apply enough upward pressure to it to 
allow the goal to be pulled or pushed, then FIRST would consider you 
to be attached... which is disallowed.  In a nutshell, incidental 
interaction, such as to "sense" where the surface is or with robot 
arms extending/retracting in that area, is allowed and expected.

> 
> <<<POST 120>>>
> From:  "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> 
> Date:  Fri Jan 11, 2002  1:21 pm
> Subject:  RE: Goal Construction & GM20
> 
> Q: GM20 states that a robot may not push or pull on the 2" Aluminum 
>    angle on the upper plywood, however the parts list does not
> include 
>    any 2" Aluminum angle. Has this angle been replaced, and may a
>    robot push or pull on its replacement?
> 
>    May a mechanism react against the lower surface of the upper
>    plywood if it does not attach to it?
> 
> A: To be clear, see rules GM21 and GM22. A robot could react 
against 
>    the lower surface of the upper plywood if it did not attach to it
>    and did not present a risk of tipping the goal over.
> 
>    M4
> 
> <<<POST 287>>>
> From: frcengineers  <frcengineers@y...> 
> Date: Wed Jan 16, 2002 0:44pm
> Subject: Re: Three Questions
>                  
> > 1. Can a robot deliberately interact with the bottom of the upper
> > plywood platform of the goal (as long as it does not cause 
damage)?
> A) No.  FIRSTsnow
>                     
> > 2. How many pneumatic cylinders are we allowed to use on our 
robot?
> A) 7 (see answer #106).  FIRSTsnow
> 
> > 3. Is it acceptable to design our robot to contact the lower 
> portion of the field barrier for a fixed distance (again assuming 
no 
> damage)?
> A) No.  See GM18.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:38:53 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Contacting the Lower Field Barrier

> 3. Is it acceptable to design our robot to contact the lower 
portion of the field barrier for a fixed distance (again assuming no 
damage)?
A) No. See GM18. FIRSTsnow




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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:16:49 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How long does it take

> Hi, Team 87.
> 
> How does it take to post a mesage to the Board.  We posted a 
question last
> week and still don't see:
> 
> 1.  The question.
> 
> 2.  Anything close to the question.
> 
> This leaves us wondering if we are able to post questions to the 
board at
> all.  Could someone please p-mail me so that I know I am able to 
actually
> get to the right place?
> 
> 
> The original question was:
> 
> In years past, there have been limitation on what can and can not be 
used
> as an Axel.  Are there currently any limitation on what material or 
pieces
> purchased from Small Parts can be used for an axel?
> 
> 
>We apologize for not getting these questions answered as quickly as 
we would like to.  Unfortunately we are all a little busy, so please 
bear with us.
No limitations.  
FIRST-t





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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:32:47 -0000
   From: "phsfirst2002" <YocumR@parklandsd.org>
Subject: Pneumatics manual missing

We are the first team from Parkland School District (team 643) and we 
did not recieve our pneumatics manual including the order form and 
pneumatics parts list.  Is there any way to recieve one, or find it 
online?  Thank you, all replies can be directed to 
yocumr@parklandsd.org

Team 643




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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Suppliers for Flanges and Casters

> Looking for a supplier of flanges and casters.
A For location of dealers for flanges and 12" nipples, contact LDR 
Industries, Inc. at 1-800-545-5230 and ask for Dorothy.
For location of dealers for casters, contact Shepherd Hardware 
Products at 1-800-645-8990 and ask for Becky. (Note: These are the 
same casters that were used last year.)  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:52:48 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Small Parts

> Do teams recieve a credit at small parts or the 25% discount?
A) A 25% discount.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:00:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Back to Small Part problems

> Small Parts has items backordered for 1 1/2 to 2 weeks.  Can we 
> obtain these parts somewhere else?
A) Yes.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 15
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:52:44 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Chairman's Award

>> Can the "Chairman's Award" be submitted in MS-Power Point format?

                -Mike - Team #548 Bosch/Northville H.S. <<

A: Unfortunately FIRST does not provide the judges' computers, as 
they are volunteers, not FIRST employees. We can recommend that they 
install MS Office and Powerpoint, but not guarantee it. So the bottom 
line is, to be safe, create a presentation in MS PP if you want, but 
save it as an html version. If the formatting of the HTML version 
does not end up to your liking, then you'll need to create an 
alternative. A self-executing file (not a .pps) would be a great 
alternative.

The computers can be expected to handle standard MS products such as 
Word and Excel, and other wide standards like browsers and Acrobat.

M4




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Message: 16
   Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 03:25:37 -0000
   From: "dbk616" <Dbk616@aol.com>
Subject: Tether

After reading Post 114 I began to wonder if there is anyway that we 
can use a tether without risking entanglement.  Can you give any 
scenario of how a tether would not risk entanglement.  All I really 
want to know is can it be done?




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Message: 17
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:23:07 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the game

Q: >Must a robot throw the ball or can it place the ball in the goal?
Are the robot, website, and animation contests seperate? If so where 
can I get dates and info on the web and animation contests?

A: The ball can be thrown or placed. All the information on the 
separate awards can be found in the Awards section of the manual.

M4




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Message: 18
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:25:17 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: tethered projectial

Q: >>If we launch a tethered (with a 3/8"rope) tennis ball sized 
projectial at the last second of the game- perhaps linked to the 
power shutdown at the end- would it be considered an entanglement 
hazard? We're thinking not since robot movement will be stopped (or 
almost stopped).<<

A: Actually, it would be. See post #114.

M4





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Message: 19
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:28:48 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Optical Sensor code

Q: >> At the Kick-off, they demonstrated a range and bearing device 
and said 
that the PBasic code would be available.  Where and when can we find 
this code? <<

A: was posted Friday; if people haven't seen it, the URL is 
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2002/goalseek.bsx

-M4








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Message: 20
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:36:47 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: backboard height

Q:>> Can you tell me exactly the backboard height is?  It looks like 
7 
feet but I wanted to be sure.  

Also, will there be a time readout that the student drivers can see 
during the match?

And if you have a tether that you try to make non-entangling (small, 
flat, whatever), will the judges automatically disallow it if it is 
flat on the playing field?  

Thanks -- sorry for all the questions -- we are doing this for the 
first time and need lots of information. <<

A:
1. It'll be finalized when we post the field perimeter specs shortly.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. See posts 114, 115 and 158 on tethers.
4. You're welcome. Sorry we can't get responses out here faster. All 
teams' patience is much appreciated.

- M4




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Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:04:20 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Chairmans Award

Q: >>With the Chairmans Award will the computers that the judges have 
support (.avi) files. <<

A: Yes, since it's supported by Win media player, part of the 
delivered operating system.

-m4






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Message: 22
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 03:26:23 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rutgers Competition

> Is there a limit to the attendees at the competition rounds and/or 
> the finals? The figure we've heard is 20 at the finals. This will 
> have an impact upon our team logistics.

THere is NO limit to the number of people attending the NJ regional, 
HOWEVER ..... there is limited space available and this is on a first 
come first served basis, so please remember gracious professionalism 
when inviting people to attend the event.  
As for the Championship Event there is no limit at all.  
FIRST-t 




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Message: 23
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:55:21 -0500 (EST)
   From: James Benneyan <benneyan@coe.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Pneumatics manual missing

Ditto - no pneumatics manual in kit.  I found some information on the FIRST site 
that is similar to last year's, but should we have received something more as 
indicated in a prior post?

NU-TRONS, Team #125

Quoting phsfirst2002 <YocumR@parklandsd.org>:

> We are the first team from Parkland School District (team 643) and we 
> did not recieve our pneumatics manual including the order form and 
> pneumatics parts list.  Is there any way to recieve one, or find it 
> online?  Thank you, all replies can be directed to 
> yocumr@parklandsd.org
> 
> Team 643
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> FRCtech2002-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 



James C. Benneyan, Ph.D.
MIME Dept - 334 Snell Engineering Center
360 Huntington Avenue
Northeastern University
Boston, MA  02115
(t) 617-373-2975, (f) 617-373-2921



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Message: 24
   Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 03:34:21 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatics manual missing

> Ditto - no pneumatics manual in kit.  I found some information on 
the FIRST site 
> that is similar to last year's, but should we have received 
something more as 
> indicated in a prior post?
> 
>
> 
>  
> we  did not recieve our pneumatics manual including the order form 
and 
> > pneumatics parts list.  Is there any way to recieve one, or find 
it 
> > online?  Thank you, 

The 2002 Pneumatics manual can be downloaded from the FIRST website.
The order form is the last page printed in the pneumatics manual.
FIRST-t
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> MIME Dept - 334 Snell Engineering Center
> 360 Huntington Avenue
> Northeastern University
> Boston, MA  02115
> (t) 617-373-2975, (f) 617-373-2921




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Message: 25
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:12:14 -0000
   From: "robatrage" <aiwis1@cs.com>
Subject: Will Window Motor Hardware Be Suplied

Hi,

1) Will the cogged timing pully, perforated plastic timing belt and 
the pully housing for the window motors be suplied this year?  These 
items were suplied in previous years.

2) If the pully and belting are not going to be suplied as part of 
the kit, can they be pruchased under the unlimited quanity and size 
of timing belt and timing pullies alowed in the aditional materials 
list.

3)  Can you please suply the manufacture of the pullies and belting, 
the models of cars that use these paticular motors, and if there are 
any sources for these parts other than the dealers as pre made 
assemblies?

Thanks for you time,

Rob at Rage, Team 173




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