Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:14:27 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 11


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There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Laptop question
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. Game Questions
           From: "metalmorphosis_team_804" <metalmorphosis_team_804@hotmail.com>
      3. Alternate joysticks
           From: "malombardo1371" <marco.lombardo@verizon.net>
      4. Interacting with the goal
           From: "n2first" <imn2robots@yahoo.com>
      5. goal handling on plywood
           From: "go_go_g8ors" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
      6. Robot Ramming
           From: "researchgod" <dickman@cat.pcsb.org>
      7. "Half" of field        Re: rules Q's / comments
           From: "wasssoap" <kenny.ardizzone@motorola.com>
      8. rules
           From: "dmilani" <dmilani@marin.k12.ca.us>
      9. More rule interpretations
           From: "robot662" <Murray.Lane@Intel.com>
     10. Nylon
           From: "sitechboy" <sitechboy@yahoo.com>
     11. Dragging Robots
           From: "turbidum" <turbidum@yahoo.com>
     12. tubing questions/kit shipment
           From: "dregier" <dregier@yahoo.com>
     13. playing field
           From: "icrobots" <icrobots@yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Robot Components
           From: "little_rockstar_75" <mlangnes@dct-inc.com>
     15. Protecting the goal...
           From: "anophelez" <echilds@acsc.net>
     16. bumper dimensions question
           From: "tdftdf" <james.becker@gpisd.org>
     17. Three Questions
           From: "michaelwallender" <mike.allender@delphiauto.com>
     18. DQ8??
           From: "wonderwoman13231" <wonderwoman13231@yahoo.com>
     19. The Promotional Video: Rules?
           From: "normie1210" <normie1210@hotmail.com>
     20. motor addition
           From: herson barrera <hersonbarrera@yahoo.com>
     21. Timing issues
           From: "ejwms2" <ejwms@hotmail.com>
     22. Small Parts Items from other suppliers?
           From: "psycho_phil2" <psycho.phil@gmx.de>
     23. dragging robot - a change?
           From: "go_go_g8ors" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
     24. fiberglas
           From: "jrwork56" <riddel_j@acadfl.baker.edu>
     25. aluminum?
           From: "cathmartin2001" <cmartin@optonline.net>
     26. Custom PCB
           From: "iscrc2" <crcurry@alaska.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:17:55 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Laptop question

> Are headphones an allowable accessory for the laptop in the player 
> stations for informational use?  For example, as an audio reminder 
of time left so that the players do not have to divert their 
attention from the field?
A) Headphones are not allowed.  FIRSTsnow




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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 03:39:20 -0000
   From: "metalmorphosis_team_804" <metalmorphosis_team_804@hotmail.com>
Subject: Game Questions

1. When an additional piece of hardware is listed as "up to 12 
thermoplastic hoods for 15 pin connectors" for example, does that 
allow a team to buy as many as they want (say, 24) but use only 12 
during competition?  Or, are the teams only allowed to buy 12?
3.  What is allowed with respect to the 10 soccer balls behind the 
end walls of the playing field?  Or, is that left open for 
interpretation as long as the mentor doesn't place a ball into the 
playing field?
2.  When should we expect the "shipped to teams" and "supplemental 
kit"?




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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 03:45:26 -0000
   From: "malombardo1371" <marco.lombardo@verizon.net>
Subject: Alternate joysticks

Can a team use steering wheel/yoke style joysticks in place of the CH 
Flightsticks provided in the kit.

Thanks,

Marco.




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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:43:49 -0000
   From: "n2first" <imn2robots@yahoo.com>
Subject: Interacting with the goal

A. The rules state you cannot push or pull on the 2x2 aluminum  on 
the top plywood plate of the goal should this be 1x1 steel? There is 
no aluminum on the goal.

B. The rule also states you cannot attach to the top or bottom 
plywood plates of the goal. What is the meant by attach? Would a 
device that presses against both the top and bottom plate like a jack 
be considered attaching?

C. Can the robot push against only the bottom side of the top plate 
of the goal like a hand lifting it as long as it doesnot touch the 
top angle iron?

D. Can the robot lift against the top flanges attached to the pipes?

E. If a device designed to lift against only the flange is 
inadvertantly dislodged due to interaction with another robot and 
ends up touching the underside of the top plate of the goal would 
that be a disqualification?

F. If a device designed to lift against only the flange is 
inadvertantly dislodged due to interaction with another robot and 
ends up touching or pulling on the top angle iron of the top plate of 
the goal would that be a disqualification?

Thanks - This game is shaping up to be the best yet!
 
 




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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:58:58 -0000
   From: "go_go_g8ors" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
Subject: goal handling on plywood

Is it acceptable to react against the bottom surface of the upper 
plywood deck of the goal, such as a fork lift that goes between the 
pipes and lifts up?

Can you clarify your response about a push bot being allowable? Can 
you push on the outer face of the plywood deck against the 
retroreflective tape or must you push against the pipes?




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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:17:14 -0000
   From: "researchgod" <dickman@cat.pcsb.org>
Subject: Robot Ramming

As a veteran of FIRST, I have been in many matches in which robots 
have aggressively made contact.  As per GM17 "Robot shoving will be 
allowed and is expected to be quite common."  In DQ3 "Intentional 
stabbing, cutting is illegal".  I would like FIRST to consider 
updating DQ3 to address team strategies in which the sole purpose is 
to damage opponent robots.  This is of particular importance since 
teams must ship their robots from event to event, making repair of 
serious structural damage extremely difficult.  I realize the extent 
of how intentionally a team makes contact with other robots is a 
judgement call for the referees, however, I believe FIRST needs to 
emphasize the difference between intentional and incidental contact.




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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:42:24 -0000
   From: "wasssoap" <kenny.ardizzone@motorola.com>
Subject: "Half" of field        Re: rules Q's / comments


Does "Half" include or exclude part of Zone #3?

I.e. 50% of the playing field away from your alliance would include 
50% of Zone #3.  These balls are also in a "non-scoring" position.


Thanks.



--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> 1.  Rule SC9 - Tie break #5 - What is meant by "opposite half of 
the 
> > field"?  This term seems a little vague.  "Opposite side" from 
your 
> > alliance station?  "Opposite side" from where balls typically 
count 
> > for a particular alliance?  Does "opposite side" exclude zone 
> > #3?  ...  Do balls that left the playing field count?  Do balls 
that 
> > are in a human player station count?  Do balls inside a robot(s)' 
> > container count, or only balls lying on the ground?  How does the 
> > second white bullet of rule SC4 apply? - "The ball must not..."
> 
> A) The "opposite half of the playing field" is the half of the 
field 
> that is furthest from your alliance station.  It refers to all 
balls 
> in that half of the  field in a non-scoring position (ball in 
robots, 
> on the carpet, etc..).  Balls in the alliance stations and balls 
that 
> have left the field are not counted.
>  
> > 2. Rule SC10 - I think I asked this in a previous year, but want 
to 
> > double check.  If both alliances are DQ'd, then both receive all 
> > three of the following: 0 score, 0 QP, and a Loss.  Is this 
correct?
> 
> A) Yes.  
> 
> ---
> FIRST MRT











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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:24:05 -0000
   From: "dmilani" <dmilani@marin.k12.ca.us>
Subject: rules

I have a guestion on rule GM20. It saids we can't attach to the upper 
or lower plywood bases of the goals but can we pull the goals up 
against our robot so that the plywood base is flush to our robot? 




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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:21:53 -0000
   From: "robot662" <Murray.Lane@Intel.com>
Subject: More rule interpretations

1. During the kickoff, Dean Kamen said "You cannot intentionally 
attach to any part of the field, including the carpet." If our robot 
lowers something like a bed of nails onto the carpet to prevent being 
pushed around by another robot, does that count as an attachment? 
(Assume the "something" will not damage the carpet.)

2)There have been many questions about entanglement. Assume a robot 
trails a thread that could easily be broken if it gets wrapped up in 
a robot or goal. Is that entanglement?

3) True or false: an object moving independantly through the air 
connected to it's robot only by a rope, string, or similar tether is 
a projectile and therefore illegal?

4) The rules for bumpers require them to be between 2 and 8 inches 
off the ground. Assume the bumpers are attached to a part of a robot 
that moves up or down for some other reason (i.e. grabbing balls) and 
this movement takes the bumpers outside the 2 to 8 inch limit. Does 
this violate the rule?





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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:15:21 -0000
   From: "sitechboy" <sitechboy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Nylon

The Additional Hardware list is vague in its description of whether 
or not nylon can be used as a chain guide?  Also, what is HDPE, a 
material listed on on the Additional Hardware List?

-Team 375




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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:45:58 -0000
   From: "turbidum" <turbidum@yahoo.com>
Subject: Dragging Robots

In response to your earlier ruling that a robot may drag another 
robot, but the refs may deem it as either "malicious" or "poor 
robot design," what happens if the refs call it "poor robot 
design"? Does the team that owns the robot need to fix their 
robot so it won't harm other robots in the future? Or do they get to 
keep on damaging other robots accidentally?




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Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:31:22 -0000
   From: "dregier" <dregier@yahoo.com>
Subject: tubing questions/kit shipment

1) What size of Round Aluminum Tube CAN be used?
2) What size of Square Aluminum Tube CAN be used?
3) Our kit has not yet arrived (we have the software).  When can we 
expect to receive it?
Thanks




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Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:36:38 -0000
   From: "icrobots" <icrobots@yahoo.com>
Subject: playing field

What type of material is under the playing field carpet?




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Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:39:44 -0000
   From: "little_rockstar_75" <mlangnes@dct-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Robot Components

I may be reading too much into this, but please tell me if the 
following statement is true or false:

Anything found in the Small Parts catalog, regardless of whether or 
not it is on the Additional Parts List, may be used as a functioning 
component of the robot.

I am asking this because you referred me to M9 (decorations) and M18 
(bumpers).  I specifically want to make sure our robot will not be 
DQ'd if we use something found in Small Parts, but NOT on the 
Additional Parts list for a functioning component on the robot (NOT 
as a decoration or bumper).  

Thanks for the clarification...sorry I'm so paranoid.

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> > 1a. If something is NOT on the additional hardware list, is it 
> > automatically eliminated from the component possibilities?
> 
> Please read Rules K1, M9, and M18.
> 
> > 1b. I saw on the additional hardware list that materials such as 
> plywood 
> > may be used on the robot.  May we use some type of fabric (i.e. 
> > canvas) on the robot as a functioning component?  
> 
> Canvas may not be substituted for plywood and does not appear in 
the 
> kit or Additional Hardware List.  If canvas is available from Small 
> Parts then it may be used on the robot.  Due to the special 
> materials rules for bumpers, canvas is acceptable as a material in 
> bumpers.
> 
> -----
> ER




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Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:40:00 -0000
   From: "anophelez" <echilds@acsc.net>
Subject: Protecting the goal...

Many of my students are concerned with keeping the goal in their 
scoring zone.  They have asked this question of me, so I will pass it 
on.

Is it legal to pin the goal between a robot and the side boundary?  
In other words, can you wedge the goal between your robot and the 
edge of the playing field in order to prevent another robot from 
moving it?

Thanks...




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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:40:39 -0000
   From: "tdftdf" <james.becker@gpisd.org>
Subject: bumper dimensions question

The rules state that bumpers may extend 4" in addition to the maximum 
dimensions of the robot. Is this 4" total added to the dimensions or 
is it 4" added to each side of the robot?

Thanks




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Message: 17
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:06:14 -0000
   From: "michaelwallender" <mike.allender@delphiauto.com>
Subject: Three Questions

1. Can a robot deliberately interact with the bottom of the upper 
plywood platform of the goal (as long as it does not cause damage)?

2. How many pnuematic cylinders are we allowed to use on our robot?

3. Is it acceptable to design our robot to contact the lower portion 
of the field barrier for a fixed distance (again assuming no damage)?

Thank you




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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:45:35 -0000
   From: "wonderwoman13231" <wonderwoman13231@yahoo.com>
Subject: DQ8??

  Okay so there is a new rule for DQ8. so can we create a deffence 
system. to defefnt ourselves to venge off other robots? Also can the 
robot Pinning to the other one. can they back up at the 10 second mark 
and just re-pin the robot again?? or could they pin them for 9 seconds 
and then back away abit and go back to pin them up?? That doesn't 
sound to fair? so can we have deffence? 

 




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Message: 19
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:17:52 -0000
   From: "normie1210" <normie1210@hotmail.com>
Subject: The Promotional Video: Rules?

Hi. Name's Joshua, nice to meet you all. :-)

Anywho, my class just joined up for the contest, and me and a friend 
have been charged with making the promotional video for the 
competition. We watched some videos from past competitions, and we 
noticed one thing: all of the videos included scenes of the robot 
doing it's thing in the arena. Is this actually necessary, or can we 
take whatever creative liberties we want? While I'm here, are there 
any other rules I should know about?

Thanks,
Josh




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Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:07:55 -0800 (PST)
   From: herson barrera <hersonbarrera@yahoo.com>
Subject: motor addition

can we add 2 drill motors to the robot


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Message: 21
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:24:36 -0000
   From: "ejwms2" <ejwms@hotmail.com>
Subject: Timing issues

The 2002 guidelines for the animation competition state:
"Animation cannot be more than 30 seconds. Timing begins as soon as 
your still frame with the required identifying information clears the 
screen. To ensure accurate timing of your Entry, we suggest you make 
a clean break to animation."

But, the picture on the bottom of the page shows a gap between the 
identifying information and the animation content. This gap is the 
same size as the suggested 5 second gap after the animation. Do we 
include a gap between the title and animation or not?

Eric Williams





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Message: 22
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:23:05 -0000
   From: "psycho_phil2" <psycho.phil@gmx.de>
Subject: Small Parts Items from other suppliers?

Our team has three questions:

1.) Are we allowed to get an item that is listed in the Small Parts 
catalog from any other supplier if it is completely identical?

2.) Are we allowed to get an item that is on the small parts catalog 
from another supplier/from another company with the exact same 
specifications for the item?

3.) Are we allowed to get parts that are on the additional hardware 
list donated?

Thanks for your help!




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Message: 23
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:53:50 -0000
   From: "go_go_g8ors" <gary.j.dillard@lmco.com>
Subject: dragging robot - a change?

I'm surprised by your response to the question about dragging a robot 
- does this mean that another robot can legally grab any part of our 
robot (center mechanisms, power or control cables, pneumatic tubing) 
and pull on it full force without being disqualified?  Grabbing 
indescriminately doesn't have to be malicious to be damaging, and this 
is a MAJOR change from past years' rulings - a distinction has always 
been made between pushing on structure or extended mechanisms, which 
are designed to take those loads, and pulling on general components.  
Is this BattleBots or FIRST?  




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Message: 24
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:43:17 -0000
   From: "jrwork56" <riddel_j@acadfl.baker.edu>
Subject: fiberglas

Does the fiberglas listed in materials have to be rigid?




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Message: 25
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:03:53 -0000
   From: "cathmartin2001" <cmartin@optonline.net>
Subject: aluminum?

What are the specs on the aluminum (i.e. how thick?)?




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Message: 26
   Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:23:25 -0000
   From: "iscrc2" <crcurry@alaska.com>
Subject: Custom PCB

1) Can a custom PCB be designed by the team but then produced by an 
outside company?

2) Does the cost of the PCB count against the $100 part limit?

3) What is the allowed size of the custom enclosure box (or is it a 
specific box) ?




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