Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:38:05 EST
Subject: Fwd: [FRCtech2002] Digest Number 5


------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: scoring ties
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      2. Re: Team Update #1 Additional Hardware list corrections Timing Belts
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      3. Re: Keeping track of points
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      4. Re: Scotch fasteners
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      5. Re: cost of robot
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      6. Pneumatic Cylinders
           From: "michaelwallender" <mike.allender@delphiauto.com>
      7. Re: Pneumatic Cylinders
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
      8. Re: Keeping track of points
           From: "zhhecht" <robotics@earthlink.net>
      9. Re: Keeping track of points
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     10. wheels from skyway
           From: "tdftdf" <james.becker@gpisd.org>
     11. Re: wheels from skyway
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     12. Tether
           From: "chantillyrobots" <chantillyrobots@yahoo.com>
     13. Pneumatics
           From: "azizh1" <azizh01@hotmail.com>
     14. Re: Pneumatics
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     15. Entanglement: Details and Clarifications
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     16. Re: Tether
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     17. Re: Best Price on Soccer Balls
           From: James Benneyan <benneyan@coe.neu.edu>
     18. Re: extending robots
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     19. Re: Animation & Credits
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     20. Re: lifting
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     21. RE: Goal Construction & GM20
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     22. Re: video submissions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     23. Re: Robot in 2 endzones, and public viewing
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     24. Re: Scoring?
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
     25. Re: video submissions
           From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:32:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: scoring ties


> in reference to SC9, the determination of tiebreakers between two 
> alliances during a match, who would get the 3x multiplier
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> no warnings/penalties for either team
> two robots in red's home zone & two robots in blue's
> one goal in each team's zone, the third is still in zone 3 where it 
> started
> 30 balls (which means equal number on each side of the field) in 
each 
> goal
> 
> for a total of 60 points each team.
> 
> so from the rules (SC9):
> 
> TieBreakers:
> 1. Least penalties or warnings - NOT PASSED (equal)
> 2. Most balls in scoring position - NOT PASSED (equal)
> 3. Most goals in scoring position - NOT PASSED (equal)
> 4. Most robots in scoring position - NOT PASSED (equal)
> 5. Most balls on other side of field - NOT PASSED (equal)
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> So what happens now?

A) Flip of a coin.  This will be added in a Team Update.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:38:39 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team Update #1 Additional Hardware list corrections Timing Belts


> The update states that Belts may be used, any size, any length for 
> use with pulleys.    
> 
> Last year, we built a wheel using a timing belt as the outer surface 
> for traction.  Does this mean we may not do that this year?

A) Team Update #1 stated Belt - Any size, any length for use with 
pulleys.  That statement will be changed to:
Belt - Any size, any length.

Which means you will be able to do that.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:43:23 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Keeping track of points


> Can someone OUTSIDE the alliance station keep track of the score and 
> signal to the operators, coach/mentor?

A)Someone outside of the alliance station (i.e. the audience) can keep 
track of the score, however they could not signal the score to someone 
in the alliance station via wireless means. 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:49:40 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Scotch fasteners


> The rules specifically prohibit velcro on the wheels.  Other 
> fasteners such as the scotch type do not have hooks and are not 
> destructive to the carpet.  Would this material be allowed on the 
> wheels. 

A) If the robot inspectors or the referee during a match determine 
that it is a hazard to the surface of the playing field then you would 
need to remove it before your robot is allowed to compete again.  
Please reference Rule M11.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:15:54 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: cost of robot



> How much are we allowed to spend on parts not included in the kit?  
> Is there a limit? Thanks, Joy

A) See rule K1, K2, & K3. Please note there is no spending limit on 
parts ordered from Small Parts Inc.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:07:26 -0000
   From: "michaelwallender" <mike.allender@delphiauto.com>
Subject: Pneumatic Cylinders

Can you please tell me the total number of pneumatic cylinders we are 
allowed to use on our machine?




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:30:04 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatic Cylinders


> Can you please tell me the total number of pneumatic cylinders we 
are 
> allowed to use on our machine?

A) 7.  The Pneumatic kit includes 3 cylinders and you can order up to 
4 more using the custom cylinder order form on the back of the 
pneumatics manual.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:26:54 -0000
   From: "zhhecht" <robotics@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Keeping track of points

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Can someone OUTSIDE the alliance station keep track of the score 
and 
> > signal to the operators, coach/mentor?
> 
> A)Someone outside of the alliance station (i.e. the audience) can 
keep 
> track of the score, however they could not signal the score to 
someone 
> in the alliance station via wireless means.

You say they can't signal via wireless means, but how about something 
low-tech like holding up a large sign?




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:38:47 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Keeping track of points

> > > Can someone OUTSIDE the alliance station keep track of the score 
> and 
> > > signal to the operators, coach/mentor?
> > 
> > A)Someone outside of the alliance station (i.e. the audience) can 
> keep 
> > track of the score, however they could not signal the score to 
> someone 
> > in the alliance station via wireless means.
> 
> You say they can't signal via wireless means, but how about 

something 
> low-tech like holding up a large sign?

A) FIRST can not stop people in the crowd from holding up signs or any 
other method from smoke signals to semaphore, BUT smoking is not 
allowed at events, and waving flags in a large crowded area is a 
safety hazard. If you want to make signs and hold them up, please 
remember they will probably not work as well as you plan and be 
considerate of you fellow viewers in the audience.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 22:58:58 -0000
   From: "tdftdf" <james.becker@gpisd.org>
Subject: wheels from skyway

The additional parts list says any wheels and any amount from skyway,
does this include the tires?  Is any type of tire available from 
skyway is also acceptable to fit on the wheels from Skyway?






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:47:32 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: wheels from skyway

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "tdftdf" <james.becker@g...> wrote:
> The additional parts list says any wheels and any amount from 
skyway,
> does this include the tires?  Is any type of tire available from 
> skyway is also acceptable to fit on the wheels from Skyway?

A) Yes.  Yes.

---
FIRST MRT




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:10:45 -0000
   From: "chantillyrobots" <chantillyrobots@yahoo.com>
Subject: Tether

would you please difine what is considered a tether.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:30:33 -0000
   From: "azizh1" <azizh01@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pneumatics

How many pneumatics cylinders are we allowed to use?
The pneumatics manual states that "Quantities of custom cylinders
will 
be limited to approximately 4 per team...". What does that mean, are 
we allowed to only use four, or can we use more?
Also can we use large cylinders as storage tanks to store pressure,
if 
so would they have to be installed before or after the 60psi 
regelator? 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:50:23 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pneumatics

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "azizh1" <azizh01@h...> wrote:
> How many pneumatics cylinders are we allowed to use?
> The pneumatics manual states that "Quantities of custom cylinders
> will 
> be limited to approximately 4 per team...". What does that mean, are 
> we allowed to only use four, or can we use more?
> Also can we use large cylinders as storage tanks to store pressure,
> if 
> so would they have to be installed before or after the 60psi 
> regelator?

See earlier response posted, but the total is 7 pneumatic cylinders.

Please read rule M13 and see the clarification to M13 in team update 
#1.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:58:18 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Entanglement: Details and Clarifications

A large number of posts have come in about what the entanglement rules 
mean. This message is a clarification on what "entanglement" means and 
how "risk of entanglement" will be interpreted during the matches.

Rather than reply individually to all of the entanglement posts to 
date, we ask teams to refer to this message, and then use common sense 
as much as possible.

If your team designs a robot that is meant to pull or push other 
robots, or otherwise manipulate them, the pulling mechanism must not 
present a risk of becoming entangled in the other robot (such that the 
other robot could not be easily released), and must not be interpreted 
by the referees as intended to damage a robot.  Also, the platform 
must not be intended to tip the robot over or be so high that a 
reasonably constructed robot would be damaged by falling off the 
platform.  See Rules GM17, DQ3, & M4.

ON TETHERED / EXTENDED OBJECTS BEING AN ENTANGLEMENT RISK
The TIMING of the release of a mechanism IS NOT CONSIDERED when 
evaluating its risk of entanglement because the actions of other 
robots and position of the goals on the field cannot be predicted with 
certainty.  Even if you only release the mechanism in the last few 
seconds of the match, if it presents an entanglement risk, it will 
be evaluated that way. When designing your robot, please consider the 
environment on the playing field during a match and use your common 
wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped 
around an axle, caught on a bolt or arm or other robot feature, or 
even hung up on part of a goal.  Tape measure tape, while less likely 
to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a 
relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might 
easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is 
being moved.  A telescoping arm, given sufficient rigidity, lack of 
sharp features, etc., would likely not present a risk of entanglement, 
but might prove flimsy and unreliable.  The ultimate determination of 
what presents a risk of entanglement is subjective and will be made by 
inspectors at each competition event, and by the referees in each 
match (in the event that something passes inspection but later becomes 
a problem during a match).





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:45:51 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tether

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "chantillyrobots" <chantillyrobots@y...> 
wrote:
> would you please difine what is considered a tether.
 
See Rules DQ3 and M16. It cannot present a risk of entanglement.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
   Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 22:44:24 -0500 (EST)
   From: James Benneyan <benneyan@coe.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Best Price on Soccer Balls

Yes.  ESP Soccer - see http://www.espsoccer.com and/or call Don at 1-888-377-
7455 and ask for Don.

Jim Benneyan
Team #125

Quoting rbuffol <rbuffol@cpcus.jnj.com>:

> Has anyone found a good supplier for the size 5 soccer balls? 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> FRCtech2002-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 



James C. Benneyan, Ph.D.
MIME Dept - 334 Snell Engineering Center
360 Huntington Avenue
Northeastern University
Boston, MA  02115
(t) 617-373-2975, (f) 617-373-2921



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:07:00 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: extending robots

Q: If a robot were able to extend itself in a way so that it touches 
 both zone 1 and zone 5, will both alliances gain 10 points for that 
particular robot at the end of the match?

A: If your team can design a robot that does this, without violating 
entanglement rules, yes, both alliances would get the points.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 19
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:10:35 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Animation & Credits

Q: Just a quick question about the animation:
In the rules book, it specifies a 30-second animation.
Our team wanted to include credits at the end, can these be in 
addition to the 30 seconds, or must we include them in the time limit?
for example, we wanted to have 30 seconds of animation, and then say 
another 10 seconds of credits.

thank you,
david rorex
team 691
hart burn

A: 10 seconds of credits at the end of the animation will be 
acceptable.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:12:32 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: lifting

>Q: Can one robot lift another robot up using a fort lift type device? 
If so for how long? Does the pinning rule apply to that?

>A: Yes, and yes the pinning rule does apply. Please read the 
Entanglement Clarification post and the rules on pinning.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:21:09 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Goal Construction & GM20

Q: GM20 states that a robot may not push or pull on the 2" Aluminum 
angle on the upper plywood, however the parts list does not include 
any 2" Aluminum angle.  Has this angle been replaced, and may a robot 
push or pull on its replacement?

May a mechanism react against the lower surface of the upper plywood 
if it does not attach to it?

A: To be clear, see rules GM21 and GM22. A robot could react against 
the lower surface of the upper plywood if it did not attach to it and 
did not present a risk of tipping the goal over.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:23:38 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: video submissions

Q: Is it permissable to submit the Anamation or Chaiman's on DVD 
instead of VHS?

A: Yes.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:28:57 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Robot in 2 endzones, and public viewing

>Q Suppose a robot could be in both endzones at once without breaking 
>anyother rules such as entanglement, etc.  Would that robot earn 10 
>points for each alliance, 0 points for each alliance, or something 
>else.  Obviously, this will not help you win but it could help you 
>WHEN you win.  I see this as a method of padding your score to gain 
>more QP's which may not be in the spirit of gracious professionalism. 

A: 10 points for each alliance. Refer to earlier message.

>Also, I found that I could not acces this forum at all without 
>signing up for Yahoo.  I thought we could view it without signing up.

A: Our apologies, the forum is now visible to the public. Posting 
still requires membership. For those of you who created an ID just to 
view, you can delete it.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:37:39 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Scoring?

> Q: I was reading the game scoring rules, it states as an example 
that at the end of a match if there are 3 robots in the blue home zone 
that 
the Blue Allaince gains 30 points. Scince there are only 2 robots to 
an Alliance, is it possible that if a opposing robot is in your home 
robot zone that you will gain 10 points for them being inside the 
zone?
Also is it possible to drag a robot into your home zone to gain 10 
points?

A: Yes. Yes.

M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25
   Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:23:08 -0000
   From: "frcengineers" <frcengineers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: video submissions

An earlier post or post(s) saying the Chairman's award could be 
accepted in DVD format was in error. DVD format will not be available 
to most judges, so it cannot be used - but CD format will. Please 
accept our apologies. 

--- In FRCtech2002@y..., "frcengineers" <frcengineers@y...> wrote:
> Q: Is it permissable to submit the Anamation or Chaiman's on DVD 
> instead of VHS?
> 
> A: Yes.
> 
> M4




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________